Official Luthiers Forum!

I've been thinking about mimf since this thread started. It occured to me to question whether I would have started building guitars or not without having access to the info and encouragement over there. I think I probably would have started, but maybe with a far greater screw-up rate.

No matter what you think of the way she runs HER sandbox, she has made a pretty significant contribution to online lutherie, and that at least should be acknowledged.

Myself, I'm greatful for all the help I received over there, but you guys are a lot more fun to hang out with.

Wow! a whole new page just for me!PaulB38582.9806597222

   I think Kathy Mats site gave me more info. Deb provided a service to most of us and to that I will agree MIMF did alot of us a favor.
   I think just like in business eventually competition will bring out the best. OLF is very good and I think the info is better here as there is no restrictions to information.
   

OK!

I might as well get my post in on this subject...

Personally, I agree that the MIMF is Deb's playground and she can run it as she pleases, I don't really have an issue with that, BUTTTTTTTTT:

The problem with John's being banned comes from the email she wrote to him, telling him of his suspension from the MIMF, and that any mention of his business will be deleted/edited.

I went there to take a look at the thread involved, basically someone looking for a 12 string kit. Another member mentioned that Martin may make one.

Now, due to John's being banned for saying he offered a kit, we cannot even mention (in the MIMF) that John has the kit available, (even though the other poster is/was able to mention Martin)therefore preventing us from sharing information we have with the lutherie community. To me, that is the antithesis of what these forums are about.

Truthfully, if John really wanted free advertisement (in a sneaky/underhanded way), all he would have had to do is to contact anyone with a MIMF membership, and have them log in and make mention of his kit in the thread. The fact that he did not use such a tactic shows me that he was acting in an above board manner.

My .02 euro cents (that's .02436 US dollar cents!)

chatter chatter chatter. Go build something

[QUOTE=tippie53]    I think Kathy Mats site gave me more info. Deb provided a service to most of us and to that I will agree MIMF did alot of us a favor.
   I think just like in business eventually competition will bring out the best. OLF is very good and I think the info is better here as there is no restrictions to information.
   [/QUOTE]

I agree, it was Kathy's site that first convinced me an amateur could really build a good guitar, more years ago than Kathy would want me to say.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I was going to stay out of this but I can't. I think John has said all he needs to. To paraphrase "I don't like her rules, but it is her domain and I wish her luck, but I will not be there anymore". That is John's choice and I might have done the same, although I choose who I p*** off by how much respect I have for them. I have been permanently banned from that other (Lutheirsforum). My crime? I cut wood in the same area as he does and I helped him get started by giving his first saw a home, cutting some tops for him with it and allowing him to use my property to deck and process logs, all in exchange for a few tops, no cash. Although, he and I have a 'history' I won't go around and slag him or his product, he actually has access to nice wood, but I am totally OK with being banned and wish him well, only because others may benifit from his drawing together other people. The morale to the story, although I like Deb Suran (from the few dealings I have had with her) I go to mimf to participate with it's members, not it's sysop. There was a post a few weeks ago captioned something like "Tonewood Suppliers in BC". I read that and said "Hey!! I'm one of those!!" He was heading out our way and wanted to see if he could drop in on a couple cutters while he was in BC and maybe get some wood (I don't think he fully understood how big BC was and I, for instance, am about 18 hours and 1000 miles from Vancouver). But I knew Deb's rules and did not post that I was around. A friend of mine did though, unsolicited. But with later contact with guy I put him onto cutters closer to Vancouver. Anyway, we all have our opinions, censorship of a site because you knew the rules and elected not to comply because you didn't agree with them is your choice, but then you have face the consequential music.

John, I am sorry for your fate with MIMF, but this thread is using up a bunch of good "Let's build guitars" space and energy. Let's get back to being positive and hey....surf where you like, I will!!

Thanks

Shane

_________________
Canada

[QUOTE=terken] One thing we are seeing here is the epidemic of "entitlement" that is
raging these days. Followed closely by the epidemic of “self-righteous
indignation” if we don’t get what we are “entitled” to get.
These forums are a free gift. Because of someone else’s hard work we
are given an incredible opportunity to exchange ideas and information
and access a large knowledge base.
If you walked into a newspaper office, TV or radio station and demanded
free advertising for your product they would laugh in your face.
Playing by the rules whether they be Deb’s or Lance’s seems pretty basic
to me for free knowledge.
We are not entitled to these forums. Let's respect the people that started
these sites and express our gratitude for what they have given us by
simply following their rules.

Terence Kennedy

[/QUOTE]

jw, why do you persist in putting out incorrect, false assertions regarding the posting of links on mimf. i and others have stated in this thread that it is perfectly ok to and that we have posted links so long as they are not for businesses which are directly luthiery related. it is done every day on mimf. so if i want to give the link where i buy ros sanding disks i can post klinggspors link, or woodworkers supply etc.

here is just one example:

   http://www.mimf.com/cgi-bin/WebX?13@180.zV 1VaMBfpna.8@.1dcf3ccd/0

it is only links to luthiery related sites which cannot be posted.

you might not have a problem if you knew whereof you speak.crazymanmichael38584.0903356482

There seems to be a sense by a few on here that because someone has rules, others should be comfortable with them or how they're administered. Obviously, anyone can apply rules on the use of anything they own. I could have a rule that says anyone is welcome in my home but they have to take their clothes off first. I probably wouldn't get many visitors.

Rules are fine. What many people here feel and are saying is that the rules on MIMF are not logically sound nor helpful for the context in which they are applied, AND when they are enforced it is done with a less than pleasant touch on the delete button. Some people can lose the whole purpose of their being, because they are so absorbed in complying with rules or enforcing rules on others. There was a time when most police were engaged in the safety and protection of the citizenry. Today they are more often tax collectors for the state or town for which they work. That's fine, I guess, but they are often not well loved by those they're sworn to preserve and protect. (Guess who got a speeding ticket for going 43 in a 35mph zone recently.) By the same token, the administration of MIMF has become so focussed on the enforcement of rules that they seem to have lost sight of the real purpose for their franchise and the current practices that are widely accepted on other, similar forums. When they were the only game inn town, they could do anything they wanted and most people would be content because there were no alternatives.

Society is comprised of those who are comfortable with rules and those who feel confined by them. Some will be comfortable with MIMF policies, some won't. Don't judge others by a standard that is uniquely yours. Some are impulsive rule breakers, some are anal retentive rule followers. One cannot judge the other nor understand their motivation and values. Our craft, as with all crafts, is populated by both. Some are intensely focussed on reproducing to the most equisite detail the structures of Torres or Martin. Their work and craftmanship is flawless. Others will say screw Martin, I'll do my own structure and bracing pattern and see what happens. Yeah, there's a little gap there, but I filled it with some CA and ebony dust, so what? There is just no way in hell those people are going to understand what motivates the other. Republicans can't understand why there are Democtrats. Ford truck owners can't understand why anyone would buy a Chevy. Some go to church; some don't. Some like the way MIMF is structured and run; it annoys others to tears.

Deb runs a tight ship by her own rules. That's fine. As some here have pointed out, it's her ball; she can take it and go home any time she wants. Just don't expect everyone left standing on the field without the means to continue the game to appreciate it. Well, the fact is they don't have to stand there nor be comfortable with it; they can come here and feel quite content with what they find. And I guess that's the whole point of all of this dialog. Some will leave here because this very discussion offends them. Others will find OLF and love the freedom and usefulness it offers, and never return of MIMF because of what happened to John and others. Time will determine which format succeeds.

I'm betting it's OLF.

End of rant...

BTW, I participate in four forums on knives and knifemaking. None restrict the use of links, even though three of the four solicit and have sponsors. All are dedicated to helping people find the knife they want or find the material or tool they need to make a knife. In fact, on two of the forums is a sticky link to a site that lists ALL known suppliers of knifemaking materials and tools.
For example:

Knifemaking Suppliers List

Now, wouldn't something like that be a great resource for us? I'm personally not aware of another forum that restricts links and most commercially available forum software, like that used here, incorporates provisions for entering links.

[QUOTE=jwsamuel]

My problem with MIMF is that NO ONE is permitted to post links. Even non-business members may not post links to where they got specific materials or items when another person asks for that informaton.

Jim[/QUOTE]

jw, once again your words and the facts are at variance.

Hello folks...
I have been thinking long and hard about all of these posts, I've read them all and I suppose that I should respond even though I was thinking that I should just stay out of it and am a bit reluctant to jump in.
As many of you know, I am one of the Staff Members on the MIMForum. In fact, it was me that posted the message there that referred someone who was looking for the 12 string kit to Martin, and John responded with his post that started all of this hub-bub. I'm sorry about that John and I would have also suggested Blues Creek if I knew there were 12 string kits there.
So, I'll say what I need to say and be done with it, if you all will bear with me a minute.
We on the staff are there to help, that is our first mission. We want the MIMForum to work out, and be as helpful as we can make it. So John, who has been around long enough to know, could have simply asked Deb or me, or anyone else how to tell folks that Blues Creek sells those kits and we would have made sure it was handled. it was a misunderstanding.
And misunderstanding is what a lot of these posts are about as well! There is a lot of error and misconceptions about the MIMF rules. Jw seems to suggest that you can't get any help there, and because you can't post a link that it stops cold any way of getting your message across and that isn't so. Names of businesses are just fine, if Jw wants to say he got that set of wood from Stew-mac, or those tuners from LMI, or a top from Colonial that is just fine. You can say all the specifics you want- you just can't post the link, that's all. Anyone who is bright enough to type a message can type the name of the link into any search engine such as Google and easily find the link. Is it that bad?
Sure, we don't like having to do it that way, and nobody likes rules. But our rules have been drawn up over a period of years in an effort to make it work out for advertisers and users alike and keep everyone happy- which is impossible but we are trying our best. Things like this are always a compromise. We're trying to make the best of all worlds.
One other thing that was mentioned is "instant messaging", if you wanted to tell someone about a certain thing they were asking about. Well, what's wrong with email? You can directly email any MIMF user, click on their name and you get their address. But keeping messages in public lets everyone learn and participate.
terry Kennedy really hit it on the head when he posted his well-thought out message, it's very true about the attitude out on the 'net....:

"One thing we are seeing here is the epidemic of "entitlement" that is
raging these days. Followed closely by the epidemic of “self-righteous
indignation” if we don’t get what we are “entitled” to get.
These forums are a free gift. Because of someone else’s hard work we
are given an incredible opportunity to exchange ideas and information
and access a large knowledge base."

And so on, the rest has already been quoted by others here too.
There were other things that I could respond to that were written here, but I think it's enough to say that many of the concerns laid out come from not understanding the rules as they are.
I came over here to Lance's fine OLF Forum becaause I wanted to participate, and make friends, and hang out with those who don't go to the MIMF anymore. That's fine, everyone makes the choice they like and as long as you are making progress in becoming a better luthier then it's all good! I enjoy things here. I am not here to confront or make controversy but to participate and I bring a positive attitude with me. In fact I am in a special position since I am an active staff member "over there"- I would like to try and help "build a bridge" between, and if I can help out in any way I will. Let's not have any bad blood, if any of you folks have any questions or problems about things there feel free to ask and I'll help you if I can. we all want to learn, and help out. Now to get back to the shop!

_________________
Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

I think this thread needs to die! Jimmie D38584.9655092593

[QUOTE=Jimmie D] I think this thread needs to die! [/QUOTE]

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE Jimmie - lets put this one to bed boys!

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

you are wrong again because marks examples refer only to luthiery related sites, not all commercial sites.

if you can't see the difference i feel for you.

This discussion is closed <BG>

EDIT: Lance sorry I posted before I saw your request. Anthony Z38586.8078472222